49– Immersive writing experiences and cultivating undergraduate research, with Joyce Kinkead

April 12, 2021 Utah State University Office of Research Episode 49
49– Immersive writing experiences and cultivating undergraduate research, with Joyce Kinkead
Show Notes Transcript

You really learn well by getting your hands on research and doing the activity,” says Dr. Joyce Kinkead. In this episode, we learn about Dr. Kinkead’s hands on approach to research and undergraduate mentorship as she talks us through the importance of writing history and her efforts as an undergraduate research mentor and administrator.

Joyce Kinkead: [00:00:00] I often work through my writing problems while I'm biking. So, I mean, I'd be paying a lot attention frankly, to the road. I'm trying to figure out what's, what's going to be that interesting hook. That'll engage a reader. 

Wyatt: [00:00:20] And once you come up with that hook, while you're on your bike, does it stay in your head or do you have to write it down right then?

Joyce Kinkead: [00:00:26] Oh, I have to go right back to the computer and get that down. 

Wyatt: [00:00:31] And then are you somebody who  starts at the beginning and then just plow through to the end or do you 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:00:35] I'm I'm a big star at the beginning person. I'm Joyce Kinkead and I'm distinguished professor of English at Utah state university 

Wyatt: [00:00:48] I'm Wyatt.

And today you're going to hear how experiences empowered a Missouri farm kid to write 14 books. You'll also hear how Joyce brings those experiences into the classroom, empowering her students to write, 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:01:02] Helping students be better writers. That's been a passion for me throughout my career because it's not only how we display our knowledge, but it's how we influence people.

It's how we record our stories. It's just a, uh, extraordinarily important skill for us to have. 

Wyatt: [00:01:23] You could be carving your name into a piece of granite, but you are listening to this INSTEAD a podcast from the office of research at Utah state university. In this episode, you'll hear about the history of writing and some of Joyce Kinkead's other books.

You'll also hear why Joyce was willing to leave a job she loved to start us writing center and to magnify research opportunities for undergraduate students. We'll get to all of that in a minute, because today is a start at the beginning kind of day.

 What drew you into writing? Why were you interested in that?

Joyce Kinkead: [00:02:01] Oh, I think I, you know, I was one of those English nerd kids and my local library, the Booneslick, uh, library and worsened, Missouri was just my lifeline to, to books and reading. I think wanting to be a writer grew out of that naturally. And so I'd write little stories and things when I was growing up.

And I wrote plays when I was in junior high. Uh, so I was just inspired by those authors and, uh, wanting to be a writer, but still, I never thought I was a very good writer, so I didn't have a lot of confidence. And I remember when I got to the dissertation stage, I thought, how can I ever do this? So I just thought that was unattainable.

And again, I didn't, I didn't have any experience with this. So, um, my sister and I are the first in her family to go to college. So we're first gen uh, students. Uh, and I, I just had helpful all along the way. Yeah. And even when I was a professor starting as assistant professor, I thought. Gosh, can I do this?

Can I, can I meet these writing standards? So if you were to tell me that I have my 14th book now earlier on, I would have said you are kidding. That will never happen. I couldn't write a book. 

Wyatt: [00:03:19] So you have a book about the history of writing over the past 5,000 years, and it's currently being printed or it's at the printers right now.

What motivated you to take on that project? 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:03:31] I got interested in the history of writing first because my husband who's on that anthropology faculty was teaching a course. On origins of writing. And he had actually been influenced by me in my teaching, writing across the curriculum and how to integrate writing in the disciplines.

And so he said, Oh, I ought to do an anthropology course on the origins of writing. And so here he was teaching about cuneiform and hieroglyphics and I thought. I am a writing specialist and I know really squat about these topics. And so that didn't seem quite right to me. Over time. I had this kind of journey in dabbling in the history of writing.

I didn't really know as a scholar that I was accumulating these experiences. Um, but then they just kind of all came together. For instance, we went to a pencil museum in Keswick, England. Here's where this wonderful graphite. Resource was discovered. It was absolutely the best graphite in the world. They didn't quite know what to do with it.

When they found it, it was like a big storm and a tree fell over and it exposed this graphite vein and they used it to Mark sheep on the sides. So the pencil was a delay in coming along, but they started taking this graphite in and wrapping it in cloth and string. And then using it. For writing. Okay. So that's one of those aha moments.

Isn't this great. Um, the same thing we went to Egypt, I saw these hieroglyphics. I'm going. This is darn amazing. We traveled in the Nesbit Tamia area. Same thing can Nao form, uh, looking at our archeology sites with just a wow factor for me and gradually these all came together. So when I, um, Took a sabbatical leave in 2018.

Uh, we got around the world ticket from Delta airlines and I had already accumulated kind of a map of where I wanted to go. So we went to a couple of dozen sites. One of those was the 14th century paper mill in France, and actually got a dip, uh, screen into a Pope VAT. Bring it back up. And my gosh, there's a sheet of paper.

Sure. It's got a dry be pressed in the light. Uh, but those were amazing experiences for me. Uh, so I I've done it at here's. The other thing I started teaching a class on this last year and students said to me, Why didn't we learn this in school? Why didn't we learn about writing implements or how papers made or about the printing press?

And so here, I think I'm the first to actually bring all of this information. About 5,000 years of writing history all together in one book, 

Wyatt: [00:06:38] I'm sure they were asking why didn't we learn this earlier, because it was helpful for them to learn. What kind of value did them having that deeper understanding, um, bring.

Joyce Kinkead: [00:06:49] Well, I'm very big on hands-on learning and you probably know that already from my history and undergraduate research is you really learn well by getting your hands on research and doing the activity. So I'm teaching my history of writing class right now. We had Molly Canon from the anthropology museum come to our class and they got to write in Canadia form on clay.

Making little winches. They're looking at the development of writing technology in a, in a quick way, but every time they're saying conveyor form and article fix were really difficult. The wax tablet, maybe a little better, then you get to the cool pen and. Okay, that's better. You get to the pencil. Oh my gosh.

How wonderful that is. You can write, you can erase easily. So they're, they're really getting a sense of what that meant. And of course now they're familiar with. Ballpoint pens, for example, 1945. There'll be four. We get two ballpoint pens. Okay. And gel pens, 1960s. Okay. Digital devices. So they're getting this broad overview of the history of writing implements and how each development made, writing more efficient.

And then with the printing press, of course. It made writing more assessable and increased literacy rates really globally. 

Wyatt: [00:08:31] Um, what are the benefits and maybe some of the drawbacks of being able to get words out of your head quicker, like, you know, when you go from cuneiform to be able to being able to write long hand with a pencil, to being able to like slam a keyboard.

Joyce Kinkead: [00:08:47] Well, how often have we said that our hands just re really can't keep up with our brains. Okay. And that's true, whether we're on a digital device or even writing with ink. Um, what's interesting though, is recent research that has said there's a real brain hand. Coordination. So you're talking about speed of getting information out, which is very important, for example, in ancient communities, um, that needed to do accounting, so economic purposes, but let's say you're wanting to do creative writing.

And you're in the here and now. Well, maybe that digital device is really good for getting it out, but some people are saying, I really need that tactile sensation of the implement in my hand, the pen or the pencil to produce, we know as. Academics is that note-taking by hand actually increases the learning because students are having to take in the information, synthesize it and then put it down on paper, which is very different than a digital device.

Like taking notes on a laptop because that's often just transcribing it. Doesn't go through that thought process. 

Wyatt: [00:10:10] Yeah. Yeah. I remember like going back and forth between. Taking notes with pencil and taking notes on a computer. And just like, I couldn't write fast enough with pencil, but I had to decide what was important and come up with a quick way to write it down.

And, um, I mean, my notes were unreadable, but I still pass the test. So, um, 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:10:32] All right. It's a really different thought process. And I've discovered some of my students do different kinds of learning techniques. They may be writing in, um, various colors of ink. One of my students said her favorite writing Apple note was this pen that had like five or six different colors they have, she could, uh, write with.

And that helped her organize her notes in her thinking. 

Wyatt: [00:10:55] Yeah. Um, I want to ask about how you write things. Do you have a favorite pen or pencil? I 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:11:01] rarely pick up a pen or pencil. I do almost everything digitally. Okay. So I'm one of those who had to write in pen and pencil early on in my life. And so when the computers came along, I was like, I am there.

I am. So there. And, uh, during my administrative career, particularly I had to write quickly, I was just churning out things. Uh, and it's, it's the same also when I'm writing, uh, working on a scholarly article or, or the book what's really, really important for me is the pre-writing. So I find that thinking through what I'm going to write in advance is absolutely crucial for me.

And I'm usually looking for what the hook is going to be in paragraph one in 

Wyatt: [00:11:49] a research context, I think of writing is just something that researchers have to do after they do the research, you know, or maybe to get the grant to do the research for you is writing. The research is do, is writing is doing writing.

Research, and I know that's horrible grammar, but it kind of makes sense. 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:12:08] That's an interesting question. Why? Because I often discover what I'm thinking through writing. Okay. But I would have a hard time, uh, just starting writing without having a foundation. Late. And I'll often try out ideas through classes before I go to the writing.

Um, so, so for instance, and this is my farm background coming out again for years, I wanted to teach a form literature class. Okay. And you think, Oh, farm literature. What is that? Well, our country was really founded in agriculture and so we have a rich, rich past in agriculture. So I designed a course that I could teach on that.

And then eventually I said, Gino, I think there's a book here. The book I wrote, uh, with Evelyn funded and Lynne McNeil is now published. Uh, and we're in our third edition of that, I think, and we have this wonderful class, this Utah state, and it's really for non-English majors. And so it's the form and literature and culture, and it unpacks really what agriculture and farming and farmers have meant to our country.

Through history and in the States and what agriculture means to us. Now, 

Wyatt: [00:13:32] I read that you weren't planning on taking the job here at USU when you were interviewing for it, but then you accepted it on the spot. Tell me about what you were doing before and why you decided to change your mind and take a job here in Utah.

Joyce Kinkead: [00:13:50] Well, I was teaching at Kansas in Kansas at a, the university. I really loved. I loved the professional environment around me. So I got a call that, uh, when I applied for the job directing the writing center, and I said, I've really liked my job where I am, and I don't want to. Do that. And they said, just send your resume just since your resume.

And so I did that and then I got another call, which you come to Logan for an interview. Um, and I said, I really don't want to waste your money. I really liked my job. Okay. And in any way, very persuasive, uh, faculty member, uh, bill Smith, who was director of writing at that point, it taught me into it. He and I, I just, I got here and, uh, Ken Hahn sacred, who was a department head at the time everyone I met was just wonderfully warm and I got this immediate sense of an Aggie family.

Okay. And I started saying my gosh, uh, and then professor Hunsicker drove me up Logan Canyon. Okay. And I think I had my head hanging out the window. I was just wowed by the environment. Um, so I, I, I did grow up on a farm of Missouri, which has beautiful scenery, but whenever my family could, we went to Colorado to the mountain for vacation that.

Being in cache Valley had these mountains around me. It was just amazing. And I actually flew, uh, on a little plane, uh, up to Logan. Okay. So it was a time when we still had commercial air plane service in 1982. Oh, I didn't know. I get it. I'm maybe one of the last people who ever flew on a commercial flight from, from salt Lake to Logan.

So I got a bird's-eye view. So I was just, I was wowed by the campus by the environment, by the, uh, amazing, um, friendliness of the faculty. And it just absolutely changed my mind. 

Wyatt: [00:15:55] Um, so a lot of your research has been focused on finding new and better ways to teach students English. Why has that your passion?

Why is that something you care about? 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:16:06] Okay. So when you say teaching English, why? Uh, English is loaded with sub fields. Okay. So there's linguistics. I could never teach that. Okay. So I'm not a specialist in AF uh, folklore, literature, creative writing, uh, composition and rhetoric, technical writing. Uh, so there the sub-fields and I've been a writing specialist, so rhetoric and composition, and I directed our writing program and our writing center when I first came to Utah state.

Uh, so when I started teaching in the, in the late. Seventies. It was a time of open admissions to colleges and people were getting access to higher education who had not had access before. So we saw a lot of students who did not have college level writing skills, and I really became a, an advocate for helping those students.

Through work and, and just a lot of practice and feedback to become competent writers. So that's been a passion for me throughout my career. It's w um, service, a founding member of the national writing centers association, which is all about one-on-one tutorial, help. You know, and that, that certainly grew out at that time.

And that's continued throughout my career is helping students be better writers because that's how we was not only how we display our knowledge, but it's how we influence people. It's how we record our stories. It is, it's just a, uh, extraordinarily important skill for us to have. 

Wyatt: [00:17:50] What are some misconceptions that people have about good writing?

Joyce Kinkead: [00:17:54] Oh, well, one of the very first things on the ever ask, uh, when, whenever I'm introduced as an English professor is, is, Oh, someone will say I better watch my grammar. The language we use is certainly part of writing. It's not the end all and be all. Uh, Friday. And so we can go back to Aristotle and look at what really, really matters.

Um, have we created a piece that's really important? Is it well organized? Uh, is the style. Uh, appropriate and yes, it does need to be correct in order to, to be credible, but it's so much more, so there are these global issues of content development structure, and then there are some lower order issues. So I, I'm always much more interested in what's being said and how it's being said than it it's correctness.

But, but I do want in the end, the whole enchilada. I want it to be a really well-framed piece that convinces people. 

Wyatt: [00:19:03] What advice do you have for somebody who's trying to organize a peace? 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:19:06] Oh, okay. The very first thing is to think about the audience. Who's going to read this, what will move that person or those people from the first sentences to complete the reading of the product, you know, that's exactly where I would go.

How are we going to engage your audience? 

Wyatt: [00:19:24] Undergraduate research is something that you've been really passionate about and a big part of your career here at USU. Why is that been a focus of yours? 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:19:34] Well, it was interesting. I was doing undergraduate research in my, in my role as a faculty member in the English department, because I got this inspiration that students would write better if they had a real audience.

Okay. So this goes back to what we just talked about in terms of audience. So it was teaching the writing fellows seminar and, and this is a program I created that put writing tutors in particular classes. It's kind of a de-centralized approach to writing center tutors. Okay. And it also gave students meaningful academic employment, but I was just having them write kind of term papers if you will, in the seminar about writing.

And then I thought, what if we were just say that we're going to submit articles. To this national writing lab newsletter, because they had tutors columns in this publication. What if we say, that's what we're going to do? And we're going to study some of those columns and you as a tutor, come up with a topic that would be appropriate for that.

Well, that entirely change the way they looked at their writing assignments. They became much more important to them. And as a result of about 20 of my students in those seminars over time were published or published. And whether the neatest aspects of that was, um, one of the students then went on to graduate school and found.

Himself in another seminar at the graduate level, actually reading an article, he had written, which was published and the whole class was reading his article and he just said, Oh, woo hoo. You know, didn't that make me feel special? Well, it was when I, when I started investigating undergraduate research, when I was a American council on education fellow in 1999, 2000.

I thought, Oh, I've been doing this all along. I just haven't ever called it undergraduate research, but I was, I was doing an administrative fellowship and I was at another Aggie school, UC Davis. And I thought, I need to learn more about an undergraduate. Research writ large across the university. So I kind of stuck my head under the few hood, so to speak.

And I, I educated myself in how undergraduate research is done in the sciences and engineering in the arts. So around the university. So when I returned from that fellowship, um, I became associate vice president for research. And was charged really with invigorating or undergraduate research program, which is the second oldest in the United States, but it wasn't as vibrant as it is now.

It is extraordinary now and I'm so happy to have helped laid that foundation. The reason we have the second oldest undergraduate research program in the United States. Is that president Taggart invited Margaret Vickers from MIT to campus. And Dr. McVickers set up the undergraduate research program at MIT.

And she came and consulted at Utah state. And so president tiger made that happen in which we started an undergraduate research program. And so that, that was really quite fun, uh, to, to dig up that history when I was in the research office and, uh, we began then really reinvigorating, undergraduate research with a number of programs.

So my analysis of Utah state at that time was that we had these islands of excellence around campus in which undergraduate research was done, just exceedingly well, we needed to federate those islands of excellence and we also needed to publicize them. So, um, that, that was quite interesting to do. I started writing the press releases, uh, myself before we had a wonderful communication department within the research office itself.

Uh, we started by hiring student interns. Uh, to come in and write pieces for us. Yeah. 

Wyatt: [00:24:02] Yeah. Um, so when I was an undergraduate at USU, I was also a transfer student from community college and I come from rural Idaho. Um, and I kind of heard about undergraduate research, but I just didn't think that it was for me, you know, like that's for smart kids, like from the city or whatever.

I'm not that I'm not smart, but it just like, it just didn't click that that was an actual opportunity for me. How, uh, what would you say to like the car, to somebody in that situation and what can we do to involve more people who don't feel like undergraduate research is for them? 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:24:38] Oh, I'm with you. And one of the reasons I'm really motivated about this is that I'm a farm kid.

Okay. So I went to college without much knowledge of, of opportunities. So when I was in a position at Utah state, To open up those possibilities. That was a primary goal is to make sure that students knew what the opportunities were so that the nature marketing and public relations we did with undergraduate research was about getting the word out.

Um, so I have to credit on a Brunson MacIntyre, uh, who now leads the communications department within, uh, research. That she came in as a student intern, but she was brilliant. She's absolutely brilliant about marketing. And so we had posters of undergraduate researchers in as many diverse fields as we possibly could.

We put those up in the math lab, we put them in the library. We repurpose them as postcards a week. Did everything we possibly could to, to make sure that undergraduate research was in students' faces and that it was applicable no matter what the major was. So those stories where our exemplars, uh, if you will, to, to give real life, uh, to them.

W and I would say also we worked with the associate deans in each college. To get the word out about undergraduate research. We, um, designated, uh, 4,900 as a course number for undergraduate research in every department. Okay. So we're keep telling students about the opportunities there. We'll never reach everybody.

But we're hoping that that message goes out consistently, but we really want undergraduate research to be assessable for everyone because it can make the difference in a student's life. Yeah. 

Wyatt: [00:26:48] What have you learned from students who are undergraduate researchers, who you worked with? 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:26:54] Oh, well, one of the things is that, uh, the mentor gets as much out of undergraduate research as a student does.

So first of all, I have these fabulous relationships, uh, with former students that I, you know, I'm still Facebook friends with and, and kind of cheering them on. Um, but I'll tell you about a recent. Incident, uh, in, I just had an article published with Cameron Haney and he's an alumni now. Uh, but he played cornerback with the Aggie football team.

Okay. And, uh, he was in my research methods class and it was a research methods about writing studies and in English. And he wasn't an English major. So I was kind of like, Oh my gosh, what is Cameron going to do his research project on? Uh, and so it was interesting. I go home and I tell my husband about here's what my students are doing, their research projects on, but I'm just flummoxed about what, what Cameron who's a football player is going to do his research project on.

And my husband said, well, football players don't right. And was it, Oh, is that right? I wonder if that's true. And so I said to Cameron in class, I said, you know, my foot, my husband said that football players don't fried. And I'm just curious if that's true. And he turned to me and he said, are you kidding?

And he started pulling these notebooks out of his backpack. He had multiple notebooks and they do film reviews. They do analysis of other teams. It turns out they do a wealth of writing. So I said, well, Cameron, there's your research topic? What are the writing lives of NCAA division one football players.

And that's exactly what he did. He analyzed his end writing alive first, and then he surveyed, uh, his team members, any interview, the academic, uh, coaches, uh, and the result was that he had a dynamite research project and he presented his poster at the research office, student research symposium in fall of 2019.

And he said to me, after. This was the best experience of my undergraduate career. Okay. So about three, three months later, I get this call for proposals for this journal on how do you do undergraduate research with student athletes? And I kind of jokingly sent this to Cameron and said, Oh, should we do a co-authored article?

And he said, you bet. Okay. So that actually helped me kind of unpack everything I had learned. About being a mentor to a student athlete and undergraduate research, and it changed my view about athletics. It changed my view about student athletes. Uh, I learned a lot from, from Cameron on what he had to do in order to be a successful researcher.

I mean, that's just one experience out of dozens. 

Wyatt: [00:30:18] Um, two questions. So what were some of the insights that were interesting about the writing lives of football players? And it also part of that story is you showed that you cared about Cameron, you were paying attention to what he was doing, and you were concerned about him finding a writing project.

What, um, why is giving students that kind of attention important? 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:30:45] Oh, I do. I love my research methods class, but okay. It's a quantitative intensive class which meets a university standard. Okay. I'm just going to be honest, English majors. Don't like numbers very much. So they start out in rather high anxiety about this class.

Each we do a whole research project as a class to help them understand empirical research, uh, and. Um, then each one has to do an individual project and come up. With the topic. Okay. That is absolutely a very stressful time for all of us because coming up with a researchable topic that can be IRB approved and use human subjects, that's not necessarily in our quiver as English majors, I guess so, but that's a lot of the fun.

Is finding out what they're interested in. Um, for example, one of my students wanted to do something about dating and the people, her group said, well, why didn't you look at the Tinder app? Yeah, and I'm going, what is Tinder? I have no knowledge of this. You know, another student wanted to know about why is there a rise of calligraphy and wedding invitations when it's so expensive?

Okay. So this search for a researchable question. Is absolutely crucial when I'm teaching students. And so Cameron was one of the last ones to get a researchable question, but what was really lovely about this is, is that he had written his IRB proposal and had it approved and he was going to do eight subjects.

Okay. Uh, and when he actually led to do the survey of his team members, Uh, he said there were more guys that wanted to participate, but I had to say to them, Oh my IRB proposal, stipulated eight. So I can't take any more, but I love he has this team spirit around him, literally they all winter to participate in answering questions.

So what he found out is that the majority of, um, football players, right. Every day in some way, Okay, so PR 80%. Why do they write? One of the reasons they write is to learn the game. Another one is that it alleviates stress. And I think that was a really nice finding for him and some of them. Right, right.

Before a game to kind of focus their thoughts. When he interviewed the academic coach, the coach said writing is absolutely important for athletes. It crystallizes their thinking. And so why, just like we were talking about that, uh, hand to brain in note taking the same thing as working for athletes. If you could write through the game itself, your strategies, that that's really crucial.

Wyatt: [00:33:55] What question do you love being asked? 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:34:00] What question do I love being asked?  

Wyatt: [00:34:02] or just, what is a question that you have been asked that you've been excited to answer? 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:34:09] Oh, yeah, maybe about travel. Okay. Because, um, Oh, I love to travel. Um, and, and again, because it didn't have great socioeconomic background, I did get to travel a lot, uh, growing up and even in my first years on the faculty here, but once I started traveling internationally, I just never looked back, but something that's really enrich my travel.

Is to choose books set in the place where I'm going. Okay. Again, English nerd, I admitted. And, uh, I started a blog called roadworks literature for travel. So now whenever I'm going to a particular place country, I make a reading list for myself and the travel has been so much more meaningful. In that way.

Uh, and then I, I have a blog that I write about it and I'd take pictures, uh, that fit with the literature and put them in the blog. And I just have a great time with that. 

Wyatt: [00:35:14] It makes me think of a few years ago, I went on my international trip and when I was there, like I had to take some downtime and just sit in my Airbnb.

I was like, I can't be walking 24 hours a day. And I chose to watch the crown on Netflix because I was like, Oh, I'm here. Um, I was really happy that I had waited a little bit to watch that because I was able to watch that kind of where it happened. And some of the things were just down the street from me.

And so not quite as proactive as reading a book ahead of time, 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:35:40] but yeah, well that immersive experience, I mean, that's, that's really rich and. I, I, we were traveling in Egypt one time and there was a tour group next to us. And I heard this woman say to the tour guide now Pharaoh's are we talking BC here?

And I thought, my gosh, you've spent thousands of dollars to come here and you didn't do any readings in advance about this. And I'm a big believers that the planning. The anticipation of travel is really part of the happiness, you know, the pleasure of a travel. And so we need to mind that, and certainly at this very moment, um, we are anticipating being able to travel again at, at some point in the future.

And we're starting to plan trips. And, and get all excited about that. 

Wyatt: [00:36:38] So if planning is important for travel and it's important for writing, do you enjoy the planning for writing? 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:36:44] I'll tell you what I'm I'm of the Dorothy Parker school is that I like writing when it's done. So it can be quite painful during the process.

I mean, sometimes you get this, Oh, I'm going, I'm going, I'm really liking this. It's great. Other times it's a slog. Uh, I, I turn to my best reader, um, my husband to give him things and I always want him to say, this is the best thing I've ever read. Okay. And you'll often say, Oh, this has gotta be totally reorganized.

Okay. Okay. And, uh, so I like it when it's, when it's done. And, uh, of course it has to sit for quite a while to go back then and read it and, and really be able to do a self evaluation at that point is a good, yeah. 

Wyatt: [00:37:41] What happens in that sitting? Why is that sitting important? 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:37:45] Well, it it's, it's really kind of, uh, self-affirming.

In, in some ways like, Oh, I like it. This is good. You told this story. Well here, you know, I mean, we still need copy editors, readers to provide feedback on what may not communicate as well. Um, but it, it's pretty neat now to go back and read my, my writing studies, my history of writing book and say, Oh, I really nailed it there.

Wyatt: [00:38:17] How do you know when you're done writing something? 

Joyce Kinkead: [00:38:22] Oh, we're never done. We're never done. You know, there's always something I gave the last lecture for honors, uh, in 2011. I'm still beating myself up that I didn't change the ending and add more to that. Okay. So this kind of thing was just, you know, they get in print or, or published or some way, and you just got to let them go.

But there it is. Yeah.

Wyatt: [00:38:52] Well, there it is my conversation that Dr. Joyce Kinkeade

there's lots of lovely stuff that couldn't make this episode. Go check out at instead podcast on Instagram, where I'll be posting a few clips that I just couldn't fit into this episode. Thank you for listening to this episode, this episode was produced by me, Wyatt  as part of my work in the office of research at Utah state.