29– Keepers vs. changers, inside a town scared of becoming Aspen with, sociologist Dr. Jessica Schad

August 03, 2020 Utah State University Office of Research Episode 29
29– Keepers vs. changers, inside a town scared of becoming Aspen with, sociologist Dr. Jessica Schad
Rivertown, Colorado
The gangplank hypothesis
Growing pains and local politics
Recessions and recreation
29– Keepers vs. changers, inside a town scared of becoming Aspen with, sociologist Dr. Jessica Schad
Aug 03, 2020 Episode 29
Utah State University Office of Research

Worried about their community turning into the next Aspen. A town in Colorado is split between the people wanting to keep things the same and newcomers moving into expensive homes on tiny lots.

Dr. Jessica Schad studies the relationship between people and natural amenities. She wrote her dissertation about this place she calls Rivertown. Get ready because she's gonna tell you all about it.


Research Landscapes Website

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Worried about their community turning into the next Aspen. A town in Colorado is split between the people wanting to keep things the same and newcomers moving into expensive homes on tiny lots.

Dr. Jessica Schad studies the relationship between people and natural amenities. She wrote her dissertation about this place she calls Rivertown. Get ready because she's gonna tell you all about it.


Research Landscapes Website

Wyatt: [00:00:00] When an old mining town turns into a summer recreation destination, there's going to be some tensions between the old timers and the new comers. Those might not be the terms that Dr. Jessica shod used when she embedded herself in a Colorado community that was experiencing these tensions. And once you start listening, you'll understand why.

And that's what this episode is about. The migration of people. Wanting to live close to natural amenities, acknowledging past generations and becoming a place of opportunity for future ones. Jessica shod, from this episode, Zach Miller from episode 26 and Jordan Smith, who will be in next week's episode of instead are all presenting in an online research landscapes event about national parks, forgotten resources and wise growth.

There's a link in the description. If you'd like more information about that, do you like getting surprises in the mail? Because if you do, we have some instead stickers that I've been sending out to people, and if you'd like one just head over to at instead podcast on Instagram and drop a comment, letting me know which design you want.

My name is Wyatt robber, and you might be washing the dust out of your eyes. Because you forgot to bring sunglasses on the family ATV ride, but you instead,

Jessica Schad: [00:01:29] I'm Jessica shod and I study people and their relationships with natural amenities. 

Wyatt: [00:01:36] Describe what a natural amenity is. Yeah, 

Jessica Schad: [00:01:39] that's a great question. People tend to use that term quite broadly. So often what we're referring to is anything natural that people use. That's not created by others. Of course, we can enhance natural amenities to make them more attractive.

So you can think about, okay, you might have mountains, um, and you can turn it into a ski Hill, which becomes more attractive to additional people. But thinking about, um, rivers. Mountains, um, very topography. Uh, those sorts of things are usually what we're referring to when we're talking about natural amenities.

Some people haven't even a broader definition of it. And so, um, people might even be referring to, um, cultivating the land. So, so farming and thinking about the, the soil and the water is natural 

Wyatt: [00:02:30] amenities, but you study people's relationship to that and sociologists. So like groups of people's relationship to that.


Jessica Schad: [00:02:38] Yes. Yes. So, um, one of the things that I'm really interested in is how in rural places, natural amenities drive migration patterns, and then how those migration patterns influence people's daily lives. And so a lot of the narratives that we hear about, um, are focused on how rural places are losing population.

And generally that is true. But there are also a lot of rural places that are gaining population. And that's often because they have what we call these attractive natural amenities. And so this trend is generally referred to as amenity migration in rural places. And so it's basically people moving to rural places because there's something about the natural amenities there that are attractive to them.

So maybe they like to be able to look out and see mountains. Maybe they like to go fly fishing on weekends. Maybe they like to only have to drive 30 minutes to go skiing. And so what we see is that. Natural attractive natural amenities are a driver in migration to certain types of rural areas. Some of the places where we see them the most are in the inner mountain West.

So like here in Newton. Yeah. 

Wyatt: [00:03:51] Yeah. Okay. So you wrote your dissertation on a town in Colorado, that's Aspen, right? Or is this a different, it's 

Jessica Schad: [00:03:59] not Aspen and I'm not going to give the name just because it's, it's better when you're doing these. Projects on these pretty small communities to, it might seem like the topics aren't anything that could cause conflict, but we prefer to keep the names confidential, just so that in case anything's that that might damage somebody.

So yeah, it is a town in Colorado. And probably what you saw with regards to Aspen was there was a lot of discussion in this community about not wanting to become Aspen. I would say that, you know, 20, 30 years down the road, there's potential for this community to D to become like Aspen. And so a lot of people are worried about that.

Um, they see some of the. Economic inequalities that exist in a place like Aspen. So there's this whole trend of lower income people who do a lot of the service work in those places like Aspen, not even being able to live there. And so they'll live an entire County over and have to drive an hour back and forth.

Um, and so, and driving up housing prices. So there's a lot of worry about, um, too much gentrification happening in the type of community that I, that I was studying. So I would call this more of a. Emerging. Rural destination, as opposed to one of those various established destinations like Aspen or Jackson hole or Bozeman Montana.

Definitely not at the same level 

Wyatt: [00:05:29] yet. And S County that I grew up in borders, um, sun Valley. And there were, there were people there who commuted like an hour and 40 minutes to work. Wow. That 

Jessica Schad: [00:05:42] is very 

Wyatt: [00:05:43] extreme. Yeah. Because they couldn't afford to live there. And meanwhile, there's houses that are empty 90% of the year in sun Valley.

Um, did this community in Colorado that you study, how did it become a community? Like what what's kind of its history at this moment? Sure. 

Jessica Schad: [00:06:02] I guess if I was describing it, I would say it's a little. Further from some of the metropolitan areas in the state. And so that makes it a little bit more challenging to get to just for say like a day trip, like you could to some of the other, um, resort communities in Colorado.

Um, but it has a history of being a mining community. So, um, the, the mining jobs over time have declined as we see in a lot of rural places. And so they shifted much more heavily to a dependence on tourism. Second home ownership and different from someplace like Aspen. It's less of a winter destination and it's more of a summer destination.

And so it has a river going through it that, um, attracts a lot of people there for kayaking and rafting. Um, and it's a little bit further from like downhill skiing type. Take recreation opportunities. The beauty that people will tell you about a place like this is that it sort of has recreational opportunities for a lot of different types of people.

It doesn't just have skiing. It has the summer stuff. It has the winter stuff. It has, um, more like ATV type, um, things for people, but also then cross country skiing. So it kind of has everything you can sort of. I imagine when you're thinking about how do people like to recreate outside. And so it's, it's just far enough from some metropolitan areas that I think it hasn't completely exploded yet, but it does have the potential to in coming decades, I would 

Wyatt: [00:07:37] say.

Being from a small town. I know that there can be lots of opinions and lots of, um, ways of looking at things. What are some of the factions, I guess that might exist in this town? Sure, 

Jessica Schad: [00:07:49] sure. So it's very common. And in any of the research literature to be discussing this culture, clash that often occurs. So, um, in this particular community, people would call.

Um, old timers versus newcomers, they call them the Flintstones versus the Jetsons. And so stones would be the people who've been there for a long time. Didn't want things to change. They just want it, the status quo versus the Jetsons who were coming in trying to change things. And so this dichotomy between newcomers and old timers is very prevalent.

Um, not just in the community that I studied, but in these amenity destinations throughout the country, um, I grew up in Montana and there was always discussion up in the Flathead area about newcomers from California. It was like the Californians were coming in, buying all the houses and they're going to change everything.

And that's the similar sort of narrative that, that I saw even in this smaller town. And so, uh, people definitely saw that there were these two separate groups and I don't call them the Flintstones and the Jetsons, um, or newcomers or old timers, because I did see that there was it. Wasn't always along the lines of how long you have lived in the place.

There were people who moved there and relatively quickly. Wanted it to just stay as it was. Um, this is sometimes referred to as the gang plank hypothesis. So it's this idea that when somebody moves somewhere and they really like it, they're going to pull up the gangplank and nobody else can come in and they want it just to stay the way that it is.

So there were some people like that, but I call them the keepers and the changers and what I found through doing interviews there and spending multiple months there is that these, these two communities did exist. There were definitely. Important social and demographic differences between them. So 

Wyatt: [00:09:51] like hop in, but it's just a lot of the Californians that moved to my community.

Like they were older and they were retired and they didn't participate in the community. They weren't like a family bringing kids who are going to the schools. They're just living there. They weren't a part of anything. Is that like, kind of, 

Jessica Schad: [00:10:11] I think that's a great point because I think that, I think that.

A key difference. A lot of the people who moved there wanted to be involved, they were making it a place that they wanted to live. They were choosing to live there. A lot of them were younger. A lot of them were bringing their own businesses, um, something that they could do online or starting the business there.

Um, and so it's different from what you did, what, what you described because a lot of the people who move in there were, were younger. Maybe they're 35. They have a couple of kids. They're pretty established in their job. Maybe they work for IBM and they can work wherever they want. And so they're moving there because of the natural amenities, but with also this plan to become part of the community.

Now here's where the interesting thing would happen was their vision of what a good community was, was very different from some of the people who had been living there longer and already liked it. How it. 

Wyatt: [00:11:11] Uh, what, what was the difference in vision? 

Jessica Schad: [00:11:16] Um, the types of amenities that they wanted. So for instance, um, like you wouldn't think that something like a coffee shop would be divisive.

I think everybody would be like, Oh cool. And other business and other places where we can hang out. But for some people, it was like, we already have a place where we can go get coffee. Yeah, why do we need two or three places? Why are people coming into the grocery store and complaining that we don't have enough of different types of cheeses?

Why do we need a brewery? We already have beer. I, um, and a really big divisive thing. And Ms. Community was, um, there was a, a development based on the principles of new urbanism. And so it's, I don't know if you know much about new urbanisms, but, um, it's these neighborhoods and sometimes it's an entire town that gets developed and I haven't heard about them really occurring in rural places, but the idea would be to have houses really close together and be multi-function.

So like in the bottom, Have your store above the shopkeeper would live, which is actually, um, how towns used to be. But if you think about development in rural places now, it's oftentimes like what you described these giant second homes on these big plots of land, very distant from each other. And the idea here was we're going to build this neighborhood.

That looks very different from all the development that's been occurring over the last 20, 30 years, but actually it looks like development a hundred years ago. Um, and it was actually very divisive in the community. 

Wyatt: [00:13:00] Yeah. And I can just imagine somebody coming in and complaining about the offerings at like my local grocery store and everybody in town.

Being a little insulted because we all know that we are just grateful to still have a grocery store. Um, and so I think there's a little bit of an insult there that nobody's acknowledging, like you're coming here and you're essentially telling me that we're backwards when this is how we've chosen to live.

Yes. There's a lot of feelings that I can imagine are getting a ma uh, acknowledged. But I also understand the advantages of having like that new urbanism. They're not taking up as much land, so more land is preserved and because there's place for them to have a business there, they're now contributing to community instead of just hanging out.

So. I very much get both sides. 

Jessica Schad: [00:13:53] Yeah. It's, it's really interesting. And that's where I sort of go back to that idea. Yeah. Everybody wanted community and that's a term that's used a lot, but they had different visions of what the community was going to look like and like how you made it. And so a lot of the stuff that that was happening down in this new development was very consumer oriented and it also, it wasn't very, I would say.

Achievable. I don't know if that's where it wasn't something that was very achievable to people with low incomes. Yeah. 

Wyatt: [00:14:22] It didn't feel welcoming. Like we're going to build this new section of town and it's not for you, even though you've lived here. Yeah, 

Jessica Schad: [00:14:29] yeah, yeah. So there's definitely a feeling of that.

And so it was like, why are they building this? Like, who is it for? Is this gonna change? Like, is it gonna take away business from the old. Downtown area, like what sort of people is this going to attract? Um, but then those people were like, we're bringing these great assets to the community. Um, one of the cool things that I think they actually did, um, was the site of the development was where the old town dump used to be.

And I think that's because it was next to the river and, um, they were able to put some of the mining dumpings there. Um, but what they did was they bought this land that wasn't developed right next to the river. And rather than allowing houses to go up right alongside the river, they turned it into a waterfront park and donated it back to the city.

And so that was like one of their ways to try and like develop this space. That wasn't going to be privatized that other people could use and hopefully create this space where people could go and interact mean recreate. 

Wyatt: [00:15:38] Yeah. Meanwhile, um, how was the old downtown doing? Were there boarded up shops or was it pretty stable?

I would say 

Jessica Schad: [00:15:45] it was actually doing pretty good. Yeah, it was actually this new development actually. Took off a lot slower than what the developers were hoping. And that was because it sort of coincided with the great recession. So 2007 to nine or 10, when I was there studying in 2012, it didn't really feel like a fully developed community.

It had some pieces, but it didn't have all of it. Um, and I should point out that part of the, um, The, I guess, ideology behind this sort of development is to be very environmentally conscious. So like have a smaller footprint. Um, I, there were these funny things that other people would say about like, Oh, the houses are so close together.

This one, um, older woman told me why would you ever want to be able to reach out of your window and get a cup of sugar from your neighbor? Because the houses are so close and then. There was a lot of, uh, problems that, that came up with how they allowed, um, like the width of the streets to be smaller than they were in other parts of the town.

Because I guess they were so small in one part that like the fire tracks weren't even going to be able to get through. So you have like really big porches, really big front yards, really big sidewalks, small roads and small backyards. And the idea is it's supposed to create more places for people to casually interact.

Um, and so those, a lot of people in the community decide as very different and odd, I guess I would say from what they think. How a town should be designed. And so that was a really big, controversial issue there. I 

Wyatt: [00:17:35] dunno, you decided to leave academia. Um, and you were working with a developer who was going into a community like this.

Like what advice would you give them to have a positive relationship from the start? 

Jessica Schad: [00:17:47] That's a great, great question. Um, I would say maybe live there for a while. Before you start to, to sort of come in and have these grand plans. I would say that the developers did things that a lot of developers don't do.

Um, like to me, it really was great that they donated that that's prime real estate riverfront real estate is prime real estate. And so to me, that is an indication that there is some thought behind there about. Not alienating, um, people within the community, but I would say living there for a little while could go a long way.

Um, also making sure that the things aren't sort of pushed through, um, making sure that there's ample time for. Decisions to be made and for community members to voice their, their opinions on things. Um, at the same time, I sort of understand how development works and I know you can't just be sitting on land or opportunities forever.

And so, um, just even I'm thinking back to some of the interviews and people would talk about how slow development happened in this place. So even though I'm saying they need to, they probably should have took things slower. They're already, it was taking a long time for, for things to happen. Um, and so I don't think that they did a horrible job of trying to get community input.

And I sort of think that no matter what they did, they, might've still been seen as outsiders coming in and trying to change things. Um, I will say one other thing that I appreciate, and I don't know where it's at right now is they did. Start to realize that they really needed to focus on having some housing available in that neighborhood for lower income people to be able to live there.

And I don't know where that, that stands at this point, but, um, I think that's important to try and make it more inclusive and they did try and do, and this is another good thing they did to try and do events that were open to everyone. So they had some different music concerts and that sort of thing that.

Anybody, theoretically wasn't invited to. Did it mean that people from all over the community came? No, I do know there are people who would go down and see what was going on in that neighborhood. Um, and maybe it opened their minds a little bit to what they were trying to do, but I do. I do think they tried.

Wyatt: [00:20:25] Yeah. Yeah. Um, have you been back or have you talked to people more recently? 

Jessica Schad: [00:20:32] You know, I haven't, I would love to go back. Um, so this was sort of research that I focused on for my dissertation. And then, um, because of the postdoc that I got, I shifted to focusing more on a different type of rural population, which is farmers.

So it's still, it's still looking at that relationship between. People and the natural environment, but in a very different way. Um, I am hoping now that I'm back here in Utah to get back into this sort of research. So I've been living in, I was living in Indiana and then South Dakota. Those are not places that have this problem that I've described, or if you want to consider it a problem, they don't have places where lots of.

Highly educated pretty well to do family aged. People are moving to, they have the exact opposite problem. People are leaving those places to come to places like Montana and Utah and whatnot. Um, and so actually I was looking at the numbers. There are, so these rules, recreation counties are the ones that I've been interested in.

Utah has seven of them. So Washington Garfield, Kane, grand Wasatch, summit, and rich. And if you look at population growth over the last decade in some of those counties, it's been really, really high. So Utah has very high population growth over the last decade. It's grown 16%. Um, but if you look at a County like Washington County, it's grown by 28.6%.

That's a lot of new people in a County. Over a decade. Um, and then even higher Wasatch 44.9%. In a deck level. So this is certainly something that I hope to examine. Um, more now that I'm living back in a place where this demographic trend is 

Wyatt: [00:22:27] happening. One of the things that I think of when I hear people complaining about growth in Utah, because it is difficult.

Even me, I've been in cache Valley for seven years and I'm like, Oh, it's grown so much. Like we have so many more stores. Oh, it's so annoying. Cause this is. The big city in air quotes to me, but then I go back home and my hometown has been shrinking for the past 40 years. So it kind of feels like your options are, are bad and worse.

What kind of perspective do you have on that kind of stuff? 

Jessica Schad: [00:23:00] I guess I get a little bit scared if the population changes too much in one direction or the other, um, I mean, nobody wants to be living in a place where you're losing your schools are losing important institutions that people in your community have relied on for a long time.

Um, some of the research that I'm doing right now is just looking at like healthcare access in rural places. And that gets really worrisome when you already have not very many doctors or access to certain, you know, health-related. Um, services in your community. And then if the population continues to dwindle, then you lose even more and have to drive multiple hours.

And so that sort of stuff really worries me. Um, but then on the other end of the spectrum, when, when things get growing too fast, you can lose sort of the identity that a place has. And so. I think, um, making sure you have people who are good planners, local politics matter. Um, one of the things that I loved about doing this research was you would never think that going to a local planning and zoning meeting would be interesting at all.

Um, but that's where the key decisions happen regarding. How your community is going to look like they're the ones who decide where a building can and can't go. And so making sure that you preserve some of the stuff that makes your community attractive in the first place is really important, right? So we don't want to have too much sprawl in these highly attractive rural places.

That mean that it becomes harder for everybody to access. Open spaces or that they're, they're looking at too many of these giant houses that, um, that are unoccupied for a lot of part of the year then. And so I think just making sure you have local people on those planning and zoning, local politicians who are aware of making sure it's smart growth is really important.

Um, and making sure the variety of voices, um, that needed to get hurt or hurt. And as I've mentioned before, the housing issue is something that they all affordable housing issue is also something that those local politicians and planners need to pay attention. 

Wyatt: [00:25:27] Um, how did they respond to you? Because I think it would be wonderful to have like, Oh, somebody is here and they care about what's happening.

Um, What was their relationship to you? And in this research, 

Jessica Schad: [00:25:43] I would say they were pretty open to talking to me. There definitely were questions about, you know, why are you here out of all the places you could choose? And, um, I will say that it wasn't just random. So I've been a part of this, um, project that I got my PhD at the university of New Hampshire, and we've been tracking.

Community and an environmental change via surveys, um, starting from like 2007 to 2011. And so one of the counties that we had data on the community within that County was where I studied. And so I have this survey data of this place and I drilled down and picked a place within there. I would just say people were super friendly and open as long as I showed that.

I would be careful with what they were telling me and that I cared about the place. I would also talk a little bit about, you know, being from a similar sort of community that was changing and whatnot. And so making sure to tell them some things that would lead to some trust and lead to some relationship building like, Oh, we have, um, some similar.

Um, interests or experiences always helped. And I would also do things that would put me out of my comfort zone in order to meet people that I wouldn't normally meet. So I needed to get an in with the older generation. And so I saw that there was a class on rug braiding. So I went and I did a five week class on rug braiding, and that's where I met a lot of, um, Older people that I was able to talk to.

And so another thing that I often did was build a starting relationship with somebody and then I'd start to talk. I'd tell them right away while, while I was there, but I wouldn't ask to come and do an in-depth interview with them until I had maybe met them a couple of times and we were more comfortable with each other.

So once I did the rep rating, I got invited to go to church. I got invited to somebody's house, all from putting myself out there a little bit. In ways that I wouldn't normally do. 

Wyatt: [00:27:46] I imagine that you probably told stories about your hometown to these people? Tell me one of those stories. Well, 

Jessica Schad: [00:27:53] my town is similar and different.

The town that I grew up with, like I grew up in Dillon, Montana. 

Wyatt: [00:28:00] Oh, okay. I've I've driven through there. I can't remember much. I'm sorry.

Jessica Schad: [00:28:08] Let's see. It's I would definitely talk about. Even in a small town, the differences between like the ranching sort of families and the town people, even though it's such a small place and you could see a similar sort of thing in this community where it's like your experience. If you're a rancher farmer is very different than if you're a town person.

And I think any sort of urban person, if they. Came to any of these communities, they would just laugh about that distinction because it all feels like very rural and they sort of assume that everybody has that ranching, farming lifestyle, even though in a very small town, that's not always right. Yeah.

Yeah. And so 

Wyatt: [00:28:54] I, Oh, you're wearing vans. You must be a city boy, you know? 

Jessica Schad: [00:28:58] Right, right. And it's like, even within these small rural places, there are these distinctions that are pretty important. 

Wyatt: [00:29:05] Somebody in one of these growing communities and Utah wanted to do something about their community to help ensure that it grows smartly.

Do you have any starting places for them? 

Jessica Schad: [00:29:18] I would say get involved with, go to start going to the local planning and zoning meetings. Um, that's just where you see, um, That's where you see the key decisions getting made. And at least in the community that I studied, they were, they made time to listen to community members.

Maybe they weren't going to change everything. I think especially young people don't realize how much of an impact they can have at the local level too. I think we often get focused at national levels and stopped to forget about the places that. That we live in and that if we want, you know, our community to look a little bit different, we can also look at the local level and our voices can be heard.

We can also be active participants in that decision making. And so it could be eye opening for some people just to go to those sort of meetings and see. How it happens. It's not just magic. 

Wyatt: [00:30:21] Is that a random question? Pop into my head. Somehow my hometown newspaper still exists. It's not online. It's in print only.

It's very light. Where were the people in the town? You study getting their news and getting their information from? Yeah, 

Jessica Schad: [00:30:36] they actually had a pretty strong local newspaper still. And from what I've seen, I'm still on some of the listservs and I get like a weekly thing. Seems like there are newspapers still going strong, locally owned.

Um, I don't know why their newspaper is doing so well, but, um, it seemed to be an important source of information for a lot of people. And they, every once in a while would do good pieces on some of the local development issues. So, um, I remember after leaving, there were a couple pieces on housing affordability there in the community, which I thought were great.

Cause it's like, um, pointing out, maybe you're not experiencing housing affordability issues, but pointing out that this is a growing problem in our community, and we need to address that. And that's not something often it's going to get picked up by a state or national newspaper. And so. I, they had a strong newspaper there, which was really cool.

And actually just in general, it was a community that people were quite involved in people, new newcomers, old timers, it had high levels of people caring and wanting to be involved in various capacities, which was great to see. 

Wyatt: [00:31:47] What do you think would happen if they didn't have people who were involved like that?

Jessica Schad: [00:31:52] I think that well, the natural amenities are something that's attractive. I also think that a lot of people were attracted to this community because of the different events. Um, natural amenities are great, but. People create the events, um, help increase access. So create a trail system, um, create a music festival, um, create a kayaking contest, all those sorts of things, the natural amenities help, but people are the ones you have to think about people like there, 

Wyatt: [00:32:31] there was a vibe there that people were attracted to it.


Jessica Schad: [00:32:34] was a vibe there, I would say. Yeah, it was a vibrant community, even though everybody didn't agree it. Had stuff going on and whether your stuff was more related to more in line with what the changers were into like boating and mountain biking or whether it was more like the traditional rodeo stuff, there was stuff you could do.

Those worlds didn't always align. Like, you'd see very different people in different places, but there was a lot going on. 

Wyatt: [00:33:05] What have you learned or what have, or what questions have popped into your mind? Um, since the pandemic like hit us, or we found ourselves in it, I don't even know how to define it anymore.

Jessica Schad: [00:33:18] So one thing I've been thinking about lately is my research that was looking at the last decade showed, and this is congruent with other studies that economic recessions. Usually lead to lower levels of migration. However, anecdotally, we're hearing that like high humidity, rural places are there, housing markets are booming.

And so I'm really interested to see if, um, these rural recreation places rather than experiencing. You know, a drop-off in migration to them, are they all of a sudden going to actually see a spike? So as we see people able to work online, wanting to be further away from other people, are we going to see the opposite sort of trend from what we've seen in the past?

So, because of the nature of this recession is much different from say the great recession in 2007 to 2010, are we instead going to see. Population continued to climb in some of these high amenities, Earl places. And anecdotally, I have heard that that is the case, but I haven't empirically examined it yet, but I think that'll be something interesting to keep an eye on and something that I would probably examine in the future 

Wyatt: [00:34:44] this episode about the importance and the reasons and the ways that communities can grow wisely.

Listen to next week's episode with Jordan Smith, he runs it USC center for outdoor recreation and tourism, and he collects and assembles data that helps communities and to park managers. Make good decisions. This episode of instead was produced and edited by Nick Vasquez. And me why at Triber it's part of our work in the office of research at Utah state university. .


Rivertown, Colorado
The gangplank hypothesis
Growing pains and local politics
Recessions and recreation